Posted by: arnegrim | November 14, 2008


I really don’t understand why people think it is such a good system… and I’m very worried that Obama is going to drag us further down the road than we already are.

Why is the welfare state so appealing?  Is it because people feel they can get by with less effort?  Are they enthralled with the idea of taking something from someone else?  If you continue to remove the benefits of independant effort, eventually those rich people will decide that there is no benefit and they will put in less effort and either reduce the amount available to the ‘lower class’ or become one themselves so they can get something for next to nothing.  When enough of this happens, the whole system will collapse.



  1. There are two problems that I find with socialism. (Okay… more than two… just two that I will share here.)
    Humans will do whatever works for them. Kids who bully do it because it works. We’re simple creatures. And, we’ll generally do what’s easier to get what we want faster. So… why work when you can get most of your salary for almost no effort? (Welfare)
    Socialism is based on an attitude of entitlement. The poor are entitled to the wealth of others, without regard to what made them poor in the first place. Was their plight due to a lack of education? Lack of restraint? Lack of effort? Misfortune?
    Ah, who cares? Steal a fish from a rich man and throw it at a poor man… we don’t care WHY he’s poor (we don’t even care to ACTUALLY resolve the problem with him). This attitude goes against the better part of our nature. The drive to work and to work hard to see our efforts amount to something. The sense of satisfaction. And, the sincere giving out of our wealth to aid those who have been oppressed and downtrodden.
    Socialism oppresses those who – history has shown – are the most cheerful and generous givers… the rich.
    Socialism makes the rich man the bad guy… A system that shoots it’s self in the foot.

  2. It’s also about not having to suffer any personal consequences, which in turn influence decisions, often to negative results. If I no longer have to plan for my health, future, and well-being, I can make choices that I would not otherwise do so (such as spending such earned money on goods and services outside my means, sound familiar?). I can choose to make life choices that are neither in my best interest or that of those connected to me, merely because I want and desire. In essence, it creates a society of spoiled, irresponsible children…doesn’t that sound pleasant?

    The temptation to throw caution and responsibility to the wind is strong. Why make choices and be in control of your life when you can have someone else do so at their direct expense (via a third party)? It’s also an unfortunate self-perpetuating cycle.

    It also has the slight hint of slavery, since the controlling party, in the case a socialist government, makes all the necessary decisions for society, taking away such responsibility, and therefore choice, from the people. Is a slave with a kindly, well-intentioned master any less of a slave?

  3. uh, ok but……..What about all those who HAVE worked hard all their life and are now living on pensions, that due to this current economic crisis, will not see them out to the end of their lives?

    Every system has their bums and freeloaders, but when seniors have to resort to eating cat food or choose a lower quality of care because their pensions and savings just lost a significant percentage I’d rather drag along the freeloader than to have them suffer.

  4. I don’t believe it’s the government’s responsibility to take care of the elderly. It’s ours.
    But, raise up an “Entitlement Nation” and individual responsibility for one’s elders is the first to go by the wayside.
    A man who was once an asset to the government has become a liability in his old age. He is no longer a workhorse. He is a “drain” on the system.
    At best we pass him off to the government to take care of… institutionally. At worst, we expect him to recognize his lack of worth and we start eying euthanasia as a viable option.

  5. By the way…
    I want to go to where ever the picture at the top of this page was taken… BEAUTIFUL!

  6. I agree, it isn’t the governments responsibility. 100%! But look at the stats for giving in Canada. Sask is one of the most generous population for charities here plus one of the poorest but they are definitely socialist. The problem is that the entitlement mentality runs both ways even with the gov out of it. The haves look at the have nots and say, that drunk, drug addict, gambler, ect got what he deserves let him struggle and those he’s dragging along with him, I’ll give my food, money, time, to the….

    Btw Jen Have you seen this site? Secondhand Smoke? I have it linked on my site. Kinda shooting myself in the foot with it but it is good and keeps on top of the bio ethical news and debates.

  7. Wonderful comments. Let me interject this. The greatest way to ensure that those who need the help get the help is to set up a foundation that takes donations. Generally speaking, wealthy people are very generous on their own. Trying to force generosity will only build resentment and anger. The more that is taken from them, the less they freely give. I am willing to bet that the net result is less than if the government just stayed out of it.
    The elderly and disabled need to be helped, but there are too many out there who take advantage of the situation who are not elderly or disabled… and Governments (both Federal and State) are not efficient enough to manage such a program. Perhaps breaking it down to a regional area…?

  8. To add, there are numerous charitable organizations and foundations that were created to help those in such situations. Such organizations have the benefit of truly showing the generosity of the people of this country (by far one of the most generous countries on the planet) because it allows people to give of their own free will. Their continued existence shows the proof of such generosity. Over $300 billion dollars was donated to charitable organizations last year in the US.

    We are well equipped to take care of those who are in need on our own without the added complications and bureaucracies of the government trying to mandate such care.

    Like has been true throughout most history, if I want something done right, I do it myself. If I want something attempted to be done at the most cost, worst ability, and drawn out over the longest period of time, I’ll call the government.

  9. But people are not willing to take care of those who they perceive to be “milking” the system. I would bet that only a very small percentage of people on the “system” are truly there just to take advantage. Most I would say want a productive meaningful life.

    The system needs to be non judgmental. I know people and families who have worked hard all their lives but who have made poor judgments. People who, when those looking from the outside in say, “they deserve what they get and they don’t deserve my hard earned money.”. I mean just look at how we treat people in our own faith who have differing opinions!

    We too easily say to them “I’m going my own way, you don’t deserve my time or energy.”. We can’t even agree on music, carpet colours, kitchens, ect, you think we’ll be able to agree on the best way to help someone and where our money should go. Excuses I’ve heard ‘they spend too much money on their staff’, ‘they do too much feeding and not enough preaching/teaching’, ‘they don’t emphasize baptism’, ‘they support abortions’, ‘they charge for their clothes’ ‘they believe….’ and on and on.

    Organizations already exist, World Vision, Salvation Army, ect. But still people live on the streets, children starve, women are abused, pimps still find prostitutes, old people have to choose between their meds and food, the elderly are abused shut away and forgotten.

    In reality an organization, (government or otherwise) isn’t gonna do it right, only the people can do it, but unless people get off our butts to help, (meaning volunteering, meeting their neighbors needs including the guy in the gutter and not judging those who are worthy of their time and money and those who are not), the government needs to play a role. Even the worst of society needs charity.

  10. I think you’re mixing the problem–which we all agree exists–with the solution. There is a mechanism that is already in place to help those who are in need…be it just by cooking a meal or two for someone, or donating portions of money to organizations which do that and other help. We also know we (as in humanity) will never eradicate neediness or poverty or anything like that.

    So we have in place a way to deal with these issues, which is largely successful; relies upon the kindness and generosity of people, which is (as noted above) quite enormous; that deals with these issues in a direct way that deals with the problems as necessary. Yet, because we can’t (realistically) completely eliminate all these problems, we should therefore give it over to a mindless, faceless, vastly inefficient bureaucracy that once existed only to loosely govern a nation (instead of the lives, means, and motives of each of its citizens) so that it might seize even more of each individual’s income “in the name of the public good” to accomplish the same if not less overall help to not only those who need, but those who don’t?

    No thank you. I’d prefer to live in a world where we each make our own decisions to do what we see fit with our lives, and to help those out where we can, because we’ve been doing a pretty great job there so far. The government does not and will not know “what’s best for me”, and if it’s true for me, it’s true for every other person in this country.

  11. The problem is your talking about an oversized bureaucracy that specializes in waste. Hundred dollar hammers, bridges to nowhere, million dollar bus-stops, billions lost in Iraq, criticisms on being to slow after natural disasters, millions lost in disaster aid.

    There is no argument that there is a need. The argument is what is the best way to meet that need. I do not see the Federal Government as the best way to help the most people the most effectively. Yes, they are set up to reach the most people, but they are also set up to waste the most money doing so.

    As for people being wrongly turned away, with the number of (non-government) charities that do exist, I find it hard to believe that anyone truly in need would be unable to find it.

  12. On a side note, what do you do with those who do abuse it? Working where I do, I am able to see the women picking up their welfare checks, walking outside and using their cellphones to call their rides. Driving through low income housing, looking through windows at their big-screen TVs, satellite’s on the roof, low-rider cars with custom rims in the driveway…

    I have no problem with their acquisition of such things… but I do when it comes at the expense of the taxpayers. There are plenty of needy people who do not use their welfare money to buy such things… who look to clothe their children, put shoes on their feet, coats for the winter. Those are the people who are truly needy and deserve all that they are getting and every chance to improve their situation.

  13. I agree less government is better (in a perfect world) and charity is the obligation of the church and the christian, not government. But most churches I’ve been to and seen really don’t step up to the plate and meet the needs of the poor, sick or elderly and if they do, it is only their own that they look after. Their not interested in the homosexual, or the drug addict, or the prostitute, or the run away or the alcoholic or the……. It’s only the “clean” ones that deserve it in their mindset. I mean, even in church a member should never have to go to the food bank to feed themselves but it happens all the time. But because this happens governments must look after their people, the costs will be less in the long run.

    It’s an interesting time in N. America and I fear that many many peoples will be in a desperate struggle and the needs will not be met by the church.

  14. Rob, I really think that those people are a small percentage, but you can’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Abuse has to be dealt with and EVERY system can be abused. It’s not just government agencies that get abused. We used to have a lady in Lloyminster who would go from church to church to church to have her bills paid. Finally she was found out, but she had abused the system for a long time.

  15. You are correct. Unfortunately the ability to abuse grows the more impersonal the group being abused is. The lady was eventually discovered by the churches… but a government has so many more places to hide, so much more that they are concerned with to get lost in the system. Someone abusing the government can do so their entire lives simply because of how inefficient it is at dealing with such issues. By the same token, someone truly in need can easily slip through the cracks due to the same issue. An area or local charity dealing with hundreds or even thousands of people is better prepared to actually help those people without having many fall through the cracks. Imagine trying to keep track of millions… so much more room to be nothing more than a number, not a person, not a family, not anyone other than part of the faceless masses… and so many more cracks to disappear into.

    I don’t know the perfect solution… perhaps utilizing the government to collect those funds and distribute them to the local charitable organizations for disbursement to the people… but I do know that the federal government is not the answer themselves.

  16. Let me say, I know everyone personally who is posting so far… and I will vouch for all of them that they are good, generous people. I love a good debate and I hope you do too. As long as we all understand that the ideas and opinions expressed do not begin to show the entire character of the person sharing those ideas and opinions. (besides, I like to play ‘devils advocate’ once in a while). If you find yourself getting angry or upset, please step back and take a couple deep breaths. 🙂

  17. 😛

  18. No anger here, just hope no one is offended/upset by my views, thoughts, and opinions.

    Feel free to laugh and joke at Rob’s expense though.


  19. Works for me!

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